We can stop terrorists, but we can't stop a civil war; just get caught up in it.

Annika,

I don't think the choices are quite as limited as you would like to believe thereby presenting you with only one voting option. I heard Kagan on the Lehrer show the other night and thought he was right on the mark. He sounded incredibly informed and reasonable and what you reprint seems to be as well.

I don't think he would agree with your choice of what losing means or what a victory might look like. Or even using these simplifications to describe any outcome.

I am at a loss to conceive of a way by which we might "fix" this situation. This is hardly the same as winning. Nor do I think pulling out would be a loss (since we really aren't fighting anybody in particular; certainly not an enemy that presented a threat to America) as much as it would be a tragedy of immense proportion tacked onto the current tragedy that is ongoing and also major. It would be the acknowledgement of a blunder of immense proportion: a foreign policy agenda that was, as many knew from the start, doomed by its hubris, ignorance , craven wish for revenge and shallow analysis of the nature of the forces that attacked America .

Bush and his cronies have broken something and rendered it unfixable. The horrific miscalculations that they employed as the basis for the invasion and the resolution they envisioned will be treated by history as a blunder on a scale never seen before in this nation’s short history. We cannot "win" if winning means installing an "elected" government that will have the will and means to enforce the rule of law over this culturally diverse nation which is infected with the deep and irreconcible religious and cultural differences. No rule of law will succeeded unless a brutal tyrant commanding a loyal military and secret police can be resurrected. Or a colonial power is found that is willing to fully occupy Iraq with 5-7 hundred thousand troops, crush the resistance and then provides ongoing and open-ended support for an unpopular government as the British did too many times to mention.

Needless to say neither of these two scenarios is going to happen.

The Dem's will talk pull-out and may also may try diplomatic initiatives with neighbors, especially Iran and quite possible it will all come to nothing and two years from now they country will be just as bogged down as now. But what they won’t do is simply abandon Iraq. They, like you, would not want the consequences on their conscience.

I am very pessimistic. I see no way to right this wrong with out a continuation of the bloodshed and I have no hope of a substantive change in the status of the Iraqi government.

Part of me would like the see the balance in the house and senate maintained for another two years insuring a Democratic victory in '08. W is rapidly becoming megalomaniacal and so distant from reality that his total and through meltdown with out any help from a powershft would be gratifying

Thanks for the reminder Annika.

I know almost nothing about military strategy, and I bet the strawman knows about as little as I do.

The majority of people in the military seem to agree with your analysis. Shouldn't their expertise be given some credence? Sure you can find a handful who disagree, but in the main, read the mil bloggers ...

btw, I have a new url for things you should do

Why write "elected?" There is no proof whatsoever of rigged voting in the Iraq elections. There is more likely more voting fraud perpetuated by American Democrats than there was by those in Iraq.

BLu,

I didn't say voting fraud. I was watching a documentary as I mentioned the other night made by a women who spent 6 months with various Iraqi families leading up to the election and the aftermath. One family, educated people, father a doctor sat watching TV one night belitteling Bush's statements about fighting them in Bagdad not in Austin and laughing also about the puppet government the US installed.

I don't really know too much about the process by which candidates were certified which is, I suppose, as important as the vote casting process if you want to evaluate the Democratic process. So I based my comment on this Iraqi doctor's comment. Prolly no better than anything you have to offer I'm sure.

Well, except that the entire international community was watching and evaluating the Iraq elections. There were no major problems found. (Luckily, Jimmy Carter wasn't in charge because as we know he certified Chavez's election despite his party's Nazi-like tactics and obvious and real intimidation of his rivals. But, then again, Dems love their Commies.)

And, of course, the other obvious comment is who did put together your documentary. If it was done by a left-winger or PBS, there is a good chance it was blatantly and unashamedly bias and probably full of errors. Thank God Michael Moore really raised the bar for the documentary....

I think this idea that Democrats want us to lose is an unfair slap at good Americans who have a different point of view. It’s hard to believe that Republicans and their handmaidens in the media, FOX News, would have the audacity to blame Democrats and John Murtha for the problems in the Iraq war but that’s a pattern I’m seeing and I expect it to continue and intensify as we get closer to the elections.
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General Steel - Innovative Building Solutions!

Blu,

The money for the documentary was some small funding organizations. I know the producer. This was a simple follow people around and hear what they have to say. Follow people around and observe the conditions of their lives, no commentary, no editorializing. You, Blu, if you cared to, could see it for your self. Without too much effort most things of this nature are DL able. Title is "My COuntry, My COuntry"

Rather than telling me how bad the barn smells inside, why don't you go on in.

Nice to see my boy Danny Ortega making a comeback! BTW, did you know Nicaragua is only a two day march from Texas? I heard that nit wit Ronny Raygun on NPR this morning in a program about Ortega. Sound familiar? The Republicans have using those fear tactics forever. What would they do without fear?

More interestingly, did you hear that he (Ortega) converted to Catholicism?

No, I had not! Pretty weird. Does that mean he won't try to reverse the total ban on abortion they passed last month?

I think that he was campaigning like he wouldn't...but politicians are politicians in every country. So, who knows.

"I don't want that blood on my conscience."

This sounds a bit too strident, blame-transferring, and fear-instilling. The situation is probably already beyond restoration, so staying for 4 more years will likely accomplish little.

The Administration blundered too many times, from WMD deception and losing Bin Laden, to Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, and resurgent Taliban, and Iraqi militias.