Put's the lie to that marine's comment about what he feels, right?

I don't think this baby recoils, does it?

7.62 always has a recoil, and it's pleasant. This appears to be a jacked up M14. The last US infantry weapon for men.

In order to comment, I would ask what purpose one would be wanting to fulfill with such a weapon. The scout rifle concept is an interesting one, arguably championed recently the most by Jeff Cooper. A bipod on a scout scope seems to be an oxymoron, unless you want this rifle to also be usable by distance shooters (snipers included), though that would argue against the Aimpoint sight, even if they are carrying around the 3x magnifier.

Would you see this in use in Iraq? How is this better than the better variants of the AR15? I can see how this would be more lethal at distances over 100 meters, though it would be more bulky and slower in urban engagements, possibly resulting in the loss of the soldier carrying it.

Would you think of this as a good deer gun in semi-brush country? A rustler-stopper in the Midwest? I could actually use something like this on my sheep farm as a coyote gun, though the round is overkill for coyotes, and I wouldn't need 20 rounds (unless there was a pack of wild dogs). This would work well in various situations as seen in "The Postman".

The .308 is a good all-around load; not too wimpy, not too hard on the shoulder.

Will, you are reiterating all of the reasons that the nato countrys got rid of the 7.62.
All my adult life I heard people badmouth the AR-15/M-16. It was called the Mattel special and all that. But its a really deadly weapon if you can shoot strait. I think the cyclic rate of fire in full auto on the various m-16s was a bit too high, as using full auto made you run out of ammo in a little over a second. Further, they were rugged to an extent, but could be broken by battlefield conditions.
Still, I made expert with the M-16 and I liked its light weight, and the velocity of the slugs gave it good accuracy out to 400 yards.

The M-14 and M1A rifles are excellent, but the scout variant trades an increase in recoil and muzzle blast for a decrease in muzzle velocity and effective range. If you like the carbine, for less than half the money you could get a Ruger Mini-14(.223) or Mini-30(7.62x39). They're basically scaled down versions of the M-14 and fire scaled down cartridges. They're very reliable and fairly accurate for gas-operated carbines.

Well, Will is mostly right. I need this gun for the coming "Postman" type scenario. Either as a result of "the big one" (earthquake) or "the big one" civil unrest following terrorist attack. My conversations with Publicola have prejudiced me against the .223, and I want something that shoots either the 30-06 or .308. I didn't like the Garand because of the way it loads. The M-14 seems to be a good improvement on the Garand, with it's removable mag. Yesterday I saw a match M1A for $1500, real nice. But I like the scout better because I can throw it in the trunk easier, when I head for the hills with my rations and jugs of water. So the ultimate purpose would be sort of a combination weapon for all the purposes Will mentioned.

I should also add that i heard about a 7.62x39 shortage right now. Which makes me want to stay away from that cartridge. That caliber seems somehow unamerican, anyway.

The buzz about the 7.62x39 shortage had to do with rumors that the Iraqi army was stocking up on the round.

Supplies are still a bit tight, and prices are up 40% from 6 months ago, if stock is even available.

Yes, it started out as a Soviet round, picked up by the Chinese, and Eastern Block countries. My concern is that most of the mil-surp weapons that fire that round have accuracy deficiencies.

What terrorist scenarios where you thinking might cause an exit to the 'hills'? I could envision a severe pandemic, with critical infrastructure and food supply outages, causing a sizeable exodus. But then many would find themselves in the wild alongside 1000s of bubbas with their deer rifles and incomplete provisions, absent the usual law and order constraints. Better to make arrangements with a group of people aforehand and provision early (which would mean now).

I was assuming everyone had followed the bullpup scout concept. Some examples of rifles designed along those and similar lines include the Steyr AUG, Steyr Scout, and Sig 552 Commando. If one doesn't want to spend much money, a Keltech SU-16 fits the bill with some limitations.

Chuh, fucking wannabes and their over romanticized opinions. Having once purchased an HK91, a fine German weapon, for your articulated reasons, I'd warn against it. For your purposes, the 5.56 mini 14 is just right. 5.56 is fine to 500 meters, and I dare you to hit anything past that range. 7.62 has more bang, but costs more bucks, as do howitzers of every stripe. Perhaps you'd be interested in something self-propelled?

Will: From all I hear from the boots on the ground, the M14 is staggeringly popular with the people who would be the ones killed if it tired them out too much.

I'm willing to take the word of the people who have to make and live with the decisions, as to which set of alternatives they prefer. (Though this tells us little about what the ideal possible gun is...)

For civilian, personal use, well, $1500 is pretty spendy, and I'm not sure the practical benefits, given my being a lousy shot, are worth it compared to a CETME/G3/FAL. But that's an intensely personal matter.

(FWIW, I know a retired Marine sniper who doesn't like the M-14, either, in contrast with a large number of other professionals; this just highlights the personal nature of such decisions. So I suggest borrowing or renting one to fire a few hundred rounds through it, before spending that kind of cash.)

>Will: From all I hear from the boots on the ground, the M14 is staggeringly popular with the people who would be the ones killed if it tired them out too much.

In a collecting sense, or in a modern urban combat sense? I was hoping to separate nostalgia from combat effectiveness in this discussion.

> I'm not sure the practical benefits, given my being a lousy shot, are worth it compared to a CETME/G3/FAL.

Agreed, though there is a wide range of accuracy in the variants of the 3 you listed above. A Ruger Mini will work fine as well, though if you are looking to acquire many reliable hi-cap mags, they are much less expensive for FALs.

In terms of our criteria, we haven't talked about field or detail stripping, reliability, availability of parts and ammo, reload considerations, effect of dirt and other particulates on operation, etc.