In keeping with the spirit of this post, I couldn't muster enough interest to read to the end of it. I will be interested should any of the intel oversight committees decide that they care how the fuck ole joe ended up in Niger.

Oh no!!

The MSM doesn't care about THAT lie. To expose it, they'd have to tell us about Valerie's role.

Hell, that could be a crime. What ever happened to press ethics? The wrong person went to jail.

Meanwhile, doesn't seen to me that "Scooter" is a great name with which to to enter a prison.

He better beat the rap. Which, by the way, is definitely my prediction. National Security will prevent alot of folks from tesilying, and he will be dismissed and back in the White House before the term ends.

How do we contribute to his defense fund?

WHat am I missing here?

Casca, Shelly,

Let me get this straight, you think that Plame did something wrong and that she deserved to have her identity blown? That Wilson also did something wrong? That Libby, Chaney, Rove et al were disclosing her cover as a public service? That the Niger yellow cake story was in fact true? That the forged Italian documents were real? (In spite of the fact that there was a supply of yellow cake already in Iraq, and that there was absolutely no capacity to concentrate it despite Condi’s lies about the aluminum tubes?) And I guess, most importantly, if by extension I should infer that you also believe the entire run up to the invasion was based on real, supported and verified intelligence? That we were facing an atomic scenario, stocks of germs and gas? And that the boys from Brazil are a nice friendly bunch without a vindictive bone amongst them.

Please tell me what’s up, I guess I got this whole thing wrong. Let me get my check book out and help this poor guy.

On the off chance that you're really as ignorant as you may be pretending to be... What is really going on here is a rogue element inside the CIA represented by Plame et.al. was working to undermine a sitting President through the non-office of Wilson. These people deserve a lot more than unmasking and being publicly pissed on. They're traitors, thus no doubt welcome at your table.

The left when they reach power always does what it accuses the right of doing. It uses the National Security Institutions of our country for political ends. Although there was plenty of room for it, the CIA NEVER tried to tie together the Clintons and all of their nefarious actions. When did they send a referral to the DOJ on Mark Rich and the bribes he paid for pardon? Clinton definitely used our military power to get his fat ass off the frontpages, and influence the newscycle, but never to protect this nation by going after her enemies. That's why we're in a religious war with Islam today, and considering YOUR heritage, you're pretty fucking stupid if you can't see that.

Kids, kids, kids,

As much as I don't want to add any credence to Strawman and his silly points, I do need to acknowlege that he has one.

I supported the war and I continue to, despite the incompetence of the occupation. I supported the war for very different reasons than the Adminstration supported it. I supported it because as long as Saddam was in power, he was a threat to the region and therefore to all of the oil that doesn't come from Alberta. Western democracies happen to like cheap oil, althouh you wouldn't know it by the prices we pay at the pump these days.

It was only a matter of time before the French and the Russians succeeded in lifting the sanctions against the fascist Ba'athist regime. Once that happened, one could reasonably surmise that saddam would go on a shopping spree of weapons of mass destruction. One can surmise this because he's done it before.

That would be inconsequential but or Saddam's history of strategic miscalculation. In 1980, he figured "I'll invade Iran. What can happen?" A milion dead later, he didn't learn anything. In 1990, he figured "I'll invade Kuwait. What could happen?" The spectacular ass-kicking he suffered in 1991 seemingly taught him nothing at all.

In my opinion, the White House was stupid by hanging the case for taking Saddam out on WMD and I said so at the time. Even with a convential military, Saddam was a threat and needed to be taken out. Anyone who suggests otherwise is an idiot.

But for the White House to hang their entire case on WMD was equally idiotic. It really didn't matter, from a national security perspectiive, if Saddam had WMD or not. He was a threat and needed taking out.

But marrying Saddam to WMD put the Administration on the path that logically lead to Plame-gate. WMD was the poison apple that spawned te fruit of Joe Wilson and Valarie Plame in the first place.

As much as Joey is a lying monster and all around motherfucker, he is a creation of Administration policy as it relates to WMD. If the Administration didn't predicate their entire case for war on WMD, Joe Wilson would be unknown today. But you can't get around the fact that Wilson was virtually created by a flawed policy. I've tried, and it just can't be done.

The Administration then tried to hammer the monster they created by outing his wife. Then they lied under oath about it, That much is indisputable. I think Annie makes a horrible political mistake by minimizing the importance of this indictment.

One could easily say that this is a knock-off Watergate. That misunderstands what Watergate was all about. Watergate grew out of the leak of the Pentagon Papers by Daniel Ellsberg. Given the China negotiations and the general paranoia of Richard Nixon, the resulting scandal was predictable. But one should always remember that only five people were convicted in the break-in, but eighteen Nixon people ended up going to jail over it.

The point is that stupid things tend to get away from you sometimes and often times come back to bite you on the ass. Hard. Asking Gerald Ford how this works might be helpful.

Casca, you're an idiot.

Seriuosly, how you manage to get through a day without eletrocuting yourself by blow-drying your hair in the shower as means of saving time, I'll never know.

Blaming the CIA is easy. So easy, in fact, that every president does it. Read enough memoirs and you'll find that everyone in the history of White House has a hate fuck for Langely. The only recent president how doesn't hate them is this president's father.And that's only because he ran the CIA and their headquarters happens to named after him.

Furthermore, if the CIA had an agenda against this president, why would he give them such a wide opening to make him look stupid? As i pointed out earlier, WMD was the weakest case to base invading Iraq on, but it was the preferred option for the Administration to argue.

It also ignores the point that CIA was the central clearing house for the "Saddam has WMD" theory in the first place. Do you really believe that they would set up a policy position just so they could knock it down at the expense of their own prestige?

You're argument seems to be that the Agencey killed Kennedy, but couldn't shoot straight. As you can imagine, you can't have it both ways.

Skippy Boy,

You sure have a lot of words to describe and to circumvent the realtity of what is essentially a bunch of thugs doing bad things to america and the iraqi people for reasons that you think make sense when viewed through the lens of things that had not happened.

What would have occured in Saddam's Iraq once the sanctions were lifted is mere speculation. Any number of things may have occured. To justify a current policy which began by lying to congress and the American peole and further has included invading a soverign nation and the death of 2000 GI's and as of today 26,000 civilians is a pretty fucking big leap into the abyss of "hey, it needed to be done. Doesn't matter what they said by way of a justification." I would like to see your face after your son or daughter comes home in a box and you tell their mother or grandparents about how this conflict was inevitable and that NO other way was possible to stop the threats, stick waving and to perserve a flow of oil. And, sad as you are about the loss, you are confident that all avenues had been explored leaving invasion and occupation the only viable options. My guess is you would demure from that position once you had been presented with the folded flag.

Casca, you are an ass. Our war with radical Islam is not a result of Bill CLinton's inefectual foreigh policy. To think that is really pretty empty headed. To empty headed to even begin a discussion. I'm sure Annika or possibly RayGun will administer some insight in this matter in your direction. I am no fan of Clinton's but I cannot excuse the far more malevelant foreign policy of the Bushies just because Bill was not too swift either and put his tail between his legs in Somalia. This is classic RW bullshit. "we are stupid bungling lying shits but not as stupid and bungling as the last guy"

My heritage gives me a perspective on these affairs that you cannot fathom: christian newcomer that you are.

I stand with Casca on this one. Joe Wilson is a scumbag and Libby was taking him down for trying to pin the trip in Chaney. Libby just forgot to read his notes before he testified. Rove forgot, too, but he read them after and came back and fixed his testimony.

There is no basic crime here, because Wilson was all around the District introducing Plame as his "CIA wife". Everyone in offical Washington that would talk to Wilson knew it. And, she was not "covert".

Perjury is damn near impossible to prove; as a former trial lawyer and judge, I have seen lots worse that was not provable in a court, and I'm betting Scooter scoots on this one.

There's a war here, a real, honest to goodness shooting, bombing, to the death fucking war, and these idiots are taking down our Generals with process.

There is no going back here; do you get it? We did not invade anywhere to cause 9/11 or the Cole, or the various embassy bombings. They hate our way of life and will fight to the death.

We need to get them there faster, and, over there, not here.

History will show that George W. Bush is a hero for the ages. You idiots should thank God, if you know how, every day that you are safe at your computers planning to tear him and his administration down, that George W. Bush has the guts to do what he is doing.

Casca, you don't know football, but you know what is what in this world. Thank the Lord there are more of us than them.

Love it. Strawman fell for the strawman. Way to go, Rove!

I'm sorry, but I have a two paragraph limit. I don't care how great your argument is. If you can't say what you mean in that much terrain, go back and edit. I'm not curious enough to read that much bile. Not even when it begins, "Casca is..." I just keep scrollin' alooooooooong!

BTW, if http://rschultz.blogspot.com/ isn't a daily stop, if should be. Today he recapped last nights, The True Story of Hannibal, which is relevant and instructive; http://rschultz.blogspot.com/2005/10/difficile-est-saturam-non-scribere.html

And yes, the one bet I truly regret yesterday was WaZoo. What a buncha fucking marshmellows, and if those fucks at Stanford had any stones, they'd hang their coaching staff on the quad.

"we are stupid bungling lying shits but not as stupid and bungling as the last guy"

And, the tables turn.....

[We had to act, and act now," he said.

"Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors with nuclear weapons, poison gas or biological weapons," Clinton said from the Oval Office. Clinton said he decided weeks ago to give Hussein one last chance to cooperate. But he said U.N. chief weapons inspector Richard Butler reported that Iraq had failed to cooperate -- and had in fact placed new restrictions on weapons inspectors.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair said the attack, named Operation Desert Fox, was necessary because Hussein never intended to abide by his pledge to give unconditional access to U.N. inspectors trying to determine if Iraq has dismantled its biological, chemical and nuclear weapons programs.]

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9812/16/iraq.strike.03/

The difference between Bush and Clinton is that one of them is into soft-core while the other is just hard-core. According to the quote at the top of this post, only one of them lied while the other was merely incompetent. I don't understand this since they both committed violent acts against the same nation, but only one of them gets a pass.

"To justify a current policy which began by lying to congress and the American peole and further has included invading a soverign nation and the death of 2000 GI's and as of today 26,000 civilians"

You care about American casualties again? I remember when you'd always bring up the number of dead American troops at Moxie's before the election, but after Bush's re-election you changed your tune. I can dig through the archives here to find your "rubes and rednecks with guns" comment after the Fallujah mosque incident. Hell, I'll dig through Moxie's archives:

"Before I forget let me wish you a Happy and Healthy New Year. I hope the new year brings you the peace of mind that will allow you to shun petty rivalries, petty stereotypes and that it opens your heart to the suffering of all, not just those swept up in a terrible natural disaster but those dying before the guns of American GI's and American foreign policy as well ."

"Did I ever tell you about my days at the U of W? First time the national guard was ever called to an American university campus! Quite a day. Oct. 1967 Next time the fuckers gunned down 4 unarmed students at 100 yards at Kent State. I guess they felt threatened. I think one of the student was shot once and then again later for playing dead. ANd we critize the Chinese for Tienimen Square! What hypocracy."

"it was a lie then it is a lie now and those of you who either are too young to have a deeper knowledge of the history or were too busy decimating Vietnam in an effort to install pupet dictators, were in fact the dupes. Anyone who went to Vietnam and thought he was doing important work stabilizing the world and stoping the march of communism were the ones being led by the nose by inside agitators-their government!"

Before Cindy Sheehan was around, Strawman was "sheehan-ing" the troops. Steve H. sums up the definition eloquently after Cindy's "occupied New Orleans" comments:

"I love it! Our soldiers are fascists! So Dear Grieving Mother Cindy built a wooden-cross memorial for FASCISTS! I thought they were merely martyred dupes."

http://www.hogonice.com/2005/09/drudge_does_the_unthinkable_ag.html

Hey Ray,

Thanks for the memories.

In my mind Cindy Sheehan's failure was to raise a son who wasn't sophisticated enough to understand the nature of American militarism since WW II so that he could stay out of the army where he was destined to become cannnon fodder and/or the murderer of civilians. Her strength has been to stand up and demand an accounting from the bunch of thugs that shot him into harms way.

Hey, Ray, I don't remember if you ever told me why you are not in fatigues? Better things to do?

"Aaaaaaaaaaaah, now I see", said the blind man. I thought you were a child, straw, a natural enough mistake considering the jejeune skreeds you emit. Now that you're unmasked as the dregs of your generation, a self-loathing baby-boom dirt-bag, I can understand how lying raises your ire. We always hate most in others, that which we hate most in ourselves. A lifetime of lying to oneself MUST be exhausting. Muster a bit of honest shame in the company of better men, and just go away.

Reagan, please don't waste time on this fool. He has wasted his life. Don't let him do the same with yours.

Don't you just love those who enjoy the boundless freedoms and economic juggernaut in this nation, and yet baad mouth the military, and "American Imperialism". The same imperialism which defeated the Nazis, outlasted the commies, and is now fighting Islamo-fascist child murderers.
Yeah, I know not everything we have done was good, neccesary, or done well, but hell, which nation can claim that? People like strawman really are the scum of the earth. I am reminded of the Gilbert and Sullivan song in "The Mikado"
"The idiot who praises with enthusiactic tone
every century but this and every country but his own"

Y Kyle, you nugget. You have unplumbed literary depths. I was thinking the very same thing... "I have a little list, and none of them'd be missed."

You mean, Lewis "Ham Sandwich" Libby don't you?

I generally superspeedskim strawman's comments, noticing only about every 20th word. But I notice he has insulted Casey Sheehan, a true American hero. By extension, strawman has insulted all American's who have given their lives for this nation. I don't have words to express the depth of my disgust.

Sometimes I reflect that I shall never be in another fight as long as I live. This would not be the case if I were to meet strawman in person. His nose and his teeth would be in peril. If there is a way to rid him from this comment section, I am for it.

Casca,

"Jejune skreeds" I like that and you almost spelled jejune correctly! Although I spell for shit I couldn't resist since you took the trouble of going to the dictionary and all.

I'm calling you out, you piece of shit. Its time for you to abandon the keyboard, put on a hairnet, and enter the workforce.

Gcotharn,

You got a problem mutherfucker? I'll take my fucking hair net and shove it so far up your cloacae a vole couldn't find it.

"I apologize for not blogging much lately."

Really I had not noticed at all.

There's a great scene in "In Harm's Way" where Kirk Douglas questions Rock Torrey's son's paternity, then tells him, "Guys like your old man come along only once in a while. Bums like your pal Owynn are with us always." Then Kirk beats the shit out of Owynn in the head.

"Hey, Ray, I don't remember if you ever told me why you are not in fatigues? Better things to do?"

Wow. The Chickenhawk Meme? Isn't this your M.O. anyway, Strawman?

[The Chickenhawk argument modus operandi is alsways the same as you said B5, decsending:

Did you serve or not? No? you're a ChickenHawk

If you served, did you serve in Iraq? No? you're a ChickenHawk.

Are you retired military or in CONUS? Yes? you're a ChickenHawk.

Hmmnnn- you're an aviator, you're not in infantry? I see- you must be a ChickenHawk (C.H.). That was used on me..LOL.]

I've seen you diss veterans here before. Unless if they are mutinous, I know that you loathe the troops that are currently serving in Iraq. I also know that you have no respect for the fallen. What would change if I enlisted myself?

How about this: Since you are so opposed to our military achieving victory for our country, I'll respect your opinion when you volunteer as a suicide bomber for the Islamo-Fascists. kthxbye

Dammit Reagan, that was pretty good.

Thanks, Casca.

It's really quite simple;

- Bush was looking for an excuse to invade Iraq
- A false document was created by (???) to enable an excuse
- Cheney asked for an answer on the document (perhaps expecting a certain answer?)
- Plame suggested her husband, a former ambassador to Iraq
- Joe took the trip, plied the Niger leadership, and discovered the document was false
- Joe made a number of statements, one where he speculated Cheney asked to send him. This seems to be the basis for all of the attacks against him.
- Cheney told Libby about Joe's wife
- Libby tells (directed to tell?) reporters about Joe's wife, in order to punish/harrass the Wilsons and make examples of them
- Rove tells other reporters
- Libby and Rove lie to a grand jury about telling reporters, and how they learned about Plame.
- Massive propaganda campaigns attempt to focus on relatively insignificant points to steer the minds of the steerable
- Politicians who were extremely upset about lying to the American public and grand juries 6 years ago about sex act as if it is nothing to worry about now about lying about matters of national security, even though they claim to be the stalwarts of national security.

For example, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, in a pre-emptive strike against the perceived, imminent indictments for perjury and obstruction of justice, of Karl Rove and I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, has come out and said such charges are not severe ones, just "technicalities" in her words, and the Senator implored the prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald not to indict them for anything frivolous like that.

"I do think . . . that something needs to be said that is a clear message that our rule of law is intact and the standards for perjury and obstruction of justice are not gray. And I think it is most important that we make that statement and that it be on the record for history.

"I very much worry that with the evidence that we have seen that grand juries across America are going to start asking questions about what is obstruction of justice, what is perjury. And I don't want there to be any lessening of the standard. Because our system of criminal justice depends on people telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

-- Hutchison discussing President Bill Clinton's impeachment at a news conference, Feb. 5, 1999.

In fact, given the number of special prosecutors and partisan zealots like Ken Starr hounding the former President, it is guaranteed that if Clinton had actually perjured himself and / or obstructed justice he would have at least been charged with something, somewhere, in a real court of law.

Hutchison should know about "technicalities" anyways. She once escaped criminal conviction in Texas on a "technicality", when a partisan Republican judge refused to rule in advance on whether the evidence showing her guilt could be admitted for the jury to see, thereby destroying the prosecutor's case.

[Joseph Wilson, a retired US diplomat the CIA sent to investigate the Niger story, also found evidence of Iraqi contacts with Nigerien

officials, the report said.

Wilson told the committee that Niger's former prime minister Ibrahim Mayaki reported meeting with Iraqi officials in 1999. Mayaki said a businessman helped set up the meeting, saying the Iraqis were interested in "expanding commercial relations" with Niger -- which Mayaki interpreted as an overture to buy uranium, Wilson said.

All of that information came to Washington long before an Italian journalist gave US officials copies of documents purporting to show an agreement from Niger to sell uranium to Baghdad. Those documents have been determined to be forgeries.]

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2004/07/11/2003178550

"- Plame suggested her husband, a former ambassador to Iraq
- Joe took the trip, plied the Niger leadership, and discovered the document was false
- Joe made a number of statements, one where he speculated Cheney asked to send him. This seems to be the basis for all of the attacks against him."

Wow. You are actually trying to spin one of Wilson's bald faced lies. Wilson said his wife had nothing to do with his appointment. Period.

[Instead of assigning a trained intelligence officer to the Niger case, though, the C.I.A. sent a former American ambassador, Joseph Wilson, to talk to former Niger officials. His wife, Valerie Plame, was an officer in the counterproliferation division, and she had suggested that he be sent to Niger, according to the Senate report.

That finding contradicts previous statements by Mr. Wilson, who publicly criticized the Bush administration last year for using the Niger evidence to help justify the war in Iraq. After his wife's identity as a C.I.A. officer was leaked to the news media, Mr. Wilson said she had not played a role in his assignment, and argued that her C.I.A. employment had been disclosed to punish him.]

It is really quite simple; Wilson is indeed a lying prick.

Hey Ray,

Getting a bit testy aren’t we? I have no real beef with soldiers as long as they shoot the real enemies of America and refrain from torturing and murdering those in their custody. In Iraq they are not. They are on a bogus mission destroying a country that was and is not our enemy.

Niger, yellow cake, all bullshit. Iraq couldn't have made a bomb. Not possible, just another lie to whip up rubes like you, who never took a science class and nodded their collective empty heads as Condi told them (lies) about the centrifuge tubes, with Atomic bullshit. Did Saddam want to drop a big fucking H bomb on DC? Sure. So have a thousand others. Did he? Did a bunch of connected Saudi's attack America? Seems so, no? Did we do anything about it? I can't really tell unless killing Iraqi's and Afghan’s is the measure. Iraq was always part of another plan: control oil. That’s all. EVERYTHING has been used as an excuse to achieve this end. 911 made these creeps jump for joy. Now, they thought, all will be right with the world.

This whole adventure is one big fucking lie. The Chaney-Wolfy-Libby-Rove crowd wanted to get Iraq for ten years ago. All documented. ALL that has happened is they got into power, hijacked the govt., usurped the power of congress by feeding them a bunch of hysterical lies, pretended there was no other way to save America and "free" the poor people of Iraq, and topple a dictator who owed his life and stature to our previous support. All false pretenses, all unlawful, treasonous, crimes against America.

Now assholes like you call me names because I think it is a tragedy, accuse you of paying lip service to the cause you so dearly believe in and then you dimwits suggest that I wish our real enemy, sick fucking Islamo nuts that they are, to cause us harm and our troops harm? You are really fucking idiots.

Ray, you and guys like Casca are so full of shit it runs out your nose when you get all weepy watching the e-ring or band of brothers. I love this country, I mourn our dead soldiers and I want to put a stop to their useless killing. Ray, I really don't want you fighting; your death would be as tragic as the next GI who will likely die in the next few hours. This adventure in regime change and nation building (all things Bush swore he would never do) is getting America NOWHERE and will not ever cure the rift with those who want to annihilate us. It is by most accounts making it worse. We have a problem with these people to be sure, don’t for a minute think I don't know that, I am not brain dead; I just don't think Iraq is the place to fight or the place where a win will be a win. It is a lose, lose situation. 100,000 dead, a crap non secular government, and a lot of hatred burned into the sand.

I want all Americans safe, I want innocent civilians in all countries free from our bombs, I want American bullets in the hearts of those who harmed us and I want an American government that has respect enough for it's constituents to tell them the truth, admit mistakes and follow the rule of law. And stop being vindictive bastards.

The Bush Cabal is evil: dangerous men undermining the basic precepts of what make this country great. Secretive, paranoid little men infused with religious fervor and hatred for those who turn over the rotting wood to shine the light on them. They are on a mission from god and are expressing a blatant disregard for the rule of law each day they occupy the White House. And I do mean occupy in the most militaristic sense.

"This adventure in regime change and nation building (all things Bush swore he would never do) is getting America NOWHERE and will not ever cure the rift with those who want to annihilate us. It is by most accounts making it worse."

Strawman, don't let anything like FACTS or TRUTH get in the way. I mean really! Iraqis have no benefitted at all from the toppling of a bloody monster who murdered his own family members, who raped, tortured and murdered men, women and children on a whim. No one has benefitted from free elections with little or no violence, and it's hardly noteworthy that a people with no experience in writing constitutions did so as quickly as they did. Nor are you impressed that millions of Iraqis braved death threats and the possibility of violence on their families and themselves just for standing in line to vote, sometimes for hours.

Perhaps you don't care about those things in Iraq because you don't value them in AMERICA.

I don't know why you folks parlay with the miserable self-loathing shitstain. I'm in the process of rescreening "The Sorrow & The Pity", and the defeatist politics of the collaborators clearly got the Frenchies steamrolled. It's hard not to compare them with the collaborators in our midst. I should think that we'll find something more extreme than headshaving to reward them with.

Mark,

I value them far more than you obviously do. The Facts you state are subjective observations about a wrecked country that you CHOOSE to see in a lovely golden light and you have bought into the way overblown horror stories of Iraq under Saddam. Where was your outrage as Rummy strode across the tarmac and gave him a big hug? Was he so terrible then? Were you worried then that they could not vote or were being raped in some prison basement? How concerned were you when we toppled the elected president of Chile and allowed the death squads to "dissapear" thousands of dissenters? Or the same in Guatamala? Or in Honduras? Or in Timor? You are a typical american with a mobile conscience that gets driven to the sites your government wants you to see and chooses a response for you. Mindless sheep are harder to sway than people like you.

We have tortured hundreds and killed 30 in our prison camps. We have cause the death of,30-50 thousand Iraqi's since our incursion. Far moren than Saddam would have killed in the next 20 years. There country is descimated, few schools, few hospitals, museums looted, and hundreds of other institutions destroyed, little electricity or drinking water and you, you silly ass, think they are thrilled to have traded it for a vote? Guess again. And BTW There is a fine bridge across the east river I can sell you cheap.

Casca,

You dimwit, you clearly never read anything I write. You spew ignorant, nasty, ill conceived bile, spit (you sound like a man who chews), grab another brew, settle your lazy ass into the Barcko and wait for the test pattern so you can fall asleep just like your president who I might add is dumber than you. I doubt he can type.

The headshaving is to get rid of the lice.

It doesn't seem to be working. I think their still here.

I tolja, Casca, fugggedaboudit.

Back to Columbus.

"Where was your outrage as Rummy strode across the tarmac and gave him a big hug? Was he so terrible then? Were you worried then that they could not vote or were being raped in some prison basement? How concerned were you when we toppled the elected president of Chile and allowed the death squads to "dissapear" thousands of dissenters? Or the same in Guatamala? Or in Honduras? Or in Timor?"

Above, strawman engages in what liberals do best: Change the subject.

"You are a typical american with a mobile conscience that gets driven to the sites your government wants you to see and chooses a response for you" = Insult plus big assumption.

"We have tortured hundreds and killed 30 in our prison camps. We have cause the death of,30-50 thousand Iraqi's since our incursion." = Side issue to divert attention + blatant anti-Americanism

"Far moren [sic] than Saddam would have killed in the next 20 years." = Total falsehood considering Saddam murdered over 2 million. You have lost all credibility once again. I note also the not so subtle support for a ruthless murderer who inserted innocent people into wood chippers alive.

"There [sic] country is descimated, few schools, few hospitals, museums looted, and hundreds of other institutions destroyed, little electricity or drinking water and you, you silly ass, think they are thrilled to have traded it for a vote?"

= More disinformation.

Explain this to the millions who stood in line for hours risking their lives for their vote.

Schools have been built and are running again. Hospitals are being rebuilt. Problems with electricity are partly due to horrible obsolete grids. Your post reflects the media's desire to shield you from any good info, and you assume good things are not happening simply because the media does not report them.

Thanks for calling me an "ass." Another liberal tactic: Insult the person you're debating with if he dare disagree with u. Childish insults make me smile.

"Guess again. And BTW There is a fine bridge across the east river I can sell you cheap." = Arrogance, infantile condescention, and tired cliche.

Next...

There is so much damage control contortions by the GOP desperate to contain the hemorraging that they only have recourse to shoot the messenger.

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