probably the most damaging contribution marx made to the history of political thought was attaching criminality not to the what, but to the who. therefore it's totally okay to have unprincipled hatred for contradictory reasons, as long as it's directed at the same perceived group of people.

the hippies don't have to have a conscience, annika, because they never have to worry about whether they're right or not. hippies are always right.

I find Abu Ghraib highly offensive, but I'm in favor of biotech research. What does that make me? Another anarcho-fascist, as I have read on so many pro-Bush blogs, just because I think America should hold its soldiers and employees to the moral and ethical values we purport to subscribe to? I don't think the violent protesters are reasonable, and most of them should probably be spending some time incarcerated. But that doesn't invalidate the fact that some of our soldiers, apparently with the blessing of their commanders penetrated people's anuses with night sticks, strangled people to death, beat people, and other acts that go beyond simply humiliating them (although, that too is against the Geneva convention). The US claims to be morally superior to people like terrorists, yet when it really counts, we seem to always have members of groups who are supposed to be representing us acting just like those groups that we, as a nation, seek to condemn on moral grounds.

Actually, I don't think being upset about Abu Graib makes you anything more than a conscienous human being, one with compassion for one's fellow man. And absolutely right. We as a nation and a people are better than that.

And the thing is, that was already being dealt with, with the accused being tried and the guilty being punished, before you or I heard about it. Like it is supposed to be. The pictures are there because one of the defendents wanted to get out of jail, free, and blame someone else instead of himself.

Now, if we truly were not a nation with the moral high ground, as you seem to in danger of accepting, then you would never know about Abu Griab, let alone know that the military was investigating and prosecuting the perpetrators. The fact remains those soldiers and their officers are getting what they deserve (with the possible except of BG Karpinski, but that is another issue)

When we find stuff like that going on, we stop it, and punish those that did it. When the other side does something like that, they get promoted.

BTW, ain't 'anarcho-fascist' a contradiction in terms? How can you have a state that is both anarchistic, as well as fascist? I don't think the two go together.

Not sure I agree about Gen. Karpinski. Her career is effectively over, because she failed to exercise proper control over her subordinates. Which is only fitting, because it was her job to run these facilities. I think that is probably punishment enough for what she failed to do.

Having served in the Marines for 6 years, I cannot believe that this treatment of prisoners is or was official policy, or that she knew of it, authorized, or condoned it. It is just too stupid.

Ben:

We almost didn't know about it. Indeed, the only reason we found out about it is that a consciencious soldier refused to accept the orders his direct superiors were giving him to not report it. And, the military was interested in not allowing the public to ever hear about it even then.
I don't know about "anarcho-fascist"...It's an O'Reilly/Limbaugh term.

Mark:
You haven't been listening to what's coming out of the White House: Torture is acceptable.

flaime grunted, then banged out the following:

We almost didn't know about it. Indeed, the only reason we found out about it is that a consciencious soldier refused to accept the orders his direct superiors were giving him to not report it.

But he did report it to the proper authorities in the military, which resulted in a CID investigation. If there was an attempt at a coverup outside his immediate unit, would there have been a CID investigation?

And, the military was interested in not allowing the public to ever hear about it even then.

Obviously. Which is why we had this CENTCOM release:

January 16, 2004 Release Number: 04-01-43

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

DETAINEE TREATMENT INVESTIGATION

BAGHDAD, Iraq – An investigation has been initiated into reported incidents of detainee abuse at a Coalition Forces detention facility. The release of specific information concerning the incidents could hinder the investigation, which is in its early stages. The investigation will be conducted in a thorough and professional manner. The Coalition is committed to treating all persons under its control with dignity, respect and humanity. Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, the Commanding General, has reiterated this requirement to all members of CJTF-7.

and this story on CNN, in January.

So why was the story a big deal in May? Dirty pictures. And since I'm sure you'll want to try to play this angle, I'll preemptively knock it away: Myers did not ask CBS to scuttle the story, he asked them to delay it, since there was heavy fighting at the time, and dropping it right then could get our people killed. So ask yourself, is your right to see dirty pictures two weeks sooner worth the life of a Marine?

I don't know why I'm bothering you with these facts, since your mind is obviously already made up.